Darine: Welcome to Stand Out From The Crowd.
I'm Darine, and if you are anything like me, you have probably been through a few unexpected twists on your journey. My plan A was to be a diplomat, but life had other plans, leading me to become an impact entrepreneur and champion for women's leadership.
Sometimes life has a funny way of throwing us curveballs, right? I have always wondered, why fit in when you were born to stand out?
In this podcast, I sit down with remarkable women leaders who have embraced their unique path, defied expectations, and created lasting impact.
We dive into their stories, explore their mindset, their resilience, and the strategies that helped them succeed even when left through stones in their path.
Whether it's insights on personal growth, strategies to amplify your visibility, or tips to boost your well-being and overall productivity, you will find the inspiration you need to unlock your full potential.
Join me for conversations that will empower you to stand out in your career, in your life, and in everything that you do.
Because listen, here, we don't just follow the crowd. We stand out. Hi Urmi, welcome to the Stand Out podcast. How are you doing?
Urmi: I'm good, and you?
Darine: I'm doing wonderful. I'm always happy and all right when, you know, I get to interview women leaders.
So thank you for being here with us today. We are going to have a great conversation because your profile is quite interesting.
You have built an incredible career in finance while wearing many hats.
You are an author, a podcast host, you are a mentor. So you have built this leadership figure of yourself. But I have a question.
I would like to know who were you as a girl before all of this?
Urmi: I was simply no one. Before doing any of these things, I was just simply, simply me trying to probably figure out myself and understand what I wanted to do and wanted to be in life.
And I think I was just following the conventional path of what a typical person does, studying, finishing a degree, starting a career.
But I realized at a certain point in time that I wanted to do more for myself and I wanted to do more for myself, but also for other people around me, especially women.
And that's why you see all of these titles next to my name, all these things that I do related to the person that I am today.
Darine: You said something, I think it's heartbreaking.
You said I was no one, nobody, no one. And I can relate to that, but also I want to go a little bit deeper into that perspective because I feel like, especially in the era of social media and for us millennials, are you a millennial or are you a Gen Z?
Urmi: No, I'm a millennial. But thank you for saying that if I'm Gen Z, it means that I look young enough to.
Darine: Millennials look good, we know that.
But I think we are the last generation, the lucky one, where we lived without social media. So we had like a life in real time, the real things.
And then we had to evolve and adjust with social media. But I feel like nowadays, if you don't have a strong presence on social media, if you are not recognized through social media, you feel like you are no one.
And I think it's heartbreaking. So when you said, you know, I was no one, do you mean like you felt you were not seen?
Maybe you were lost. Can you give us a little bit more perspective about your feelings?
Urmi: Yeah, I felt like I was. I don't want to say I was lost, I think when it came to certain things, it was pretty clear, I think, from an educational career point of view, it was clear.
But I think I was more lost from a personal point of view, meaning that I didn't know what my mission was in life.
I have to tell this to a lot of my friends. I said in other places, too, that I felt that was avoiding me, that I wanted to feel, but I had to find a purpose and my reason for being, you know, and I just didn't want to use my talent, my knowledge just to go waste it like that.
I wanted to be useful for the community.
And it wasn't like to be there present in social media, but just to be present in people's life, through my time, through my knowledge, by being there for them.
And so it was more from that sense, from that point of view, because I think I had a clear idea from a professional life. But I think personally, I was like, yeah, I'm not too sure how I can serve my purpose and how I can serve the community.
Darine: And oftentimes we believe that the professional mission is the life mission.
And actually, you said it, there is a professional mission and there is a personal mission.
And usually it's important to find your purpose because your purpose allows you to align both. Right. But having only a professional mission, I feel it leaves you empty of something. It's a personal mission.
Urmi: Yeah. And I want to add further about that, too, because I was reading an article about it where there was this person who was a teacher for so many years.
I think all his life he was a teacher. And then came the time when he had to retire. And he was like, I don't know who I am anymore because I was just a teacher my whole life.
And that's where I think I often think the two can be connected and there is nothing wrong with that. But as I, as it was in this case of this teacher, he was retiring and retired. And I was like, OK, well, who am I without this title as a teacher?
And I think it's important from a young age to start developing another identity or develop your identity as a whole and not just depend on one thing only.
Darine: That's very true. You describe yourself growing up as a third culture kid and all the challenges that go with it. Can you take us back to a moment when you first realized that you didn't quite fit in?
Urmi: Yes, I think it was mainly during my teenagehood that I felt I did not quite fit in because when I was a kid, I didn't understand much.
And I was like, yeah, you know, I'll figure it out eventually.
And I wasn't questioning too much about my life. But let me tell you this, when I was a child, I encountered many different things. I was born in Italy and both of my parents are from Bangladesh and I lived my whole life in Italy.
And of course, I'm seeing things done in a different way compared to what was done at home. So there was a lot of conflict between the two cultures.
And I saw one thing at home. There was another thing outside, like my parents were super strict with me.
They would tell me things such as, OK, you, you are a girl. You're not supposed to be like being out at a certain time.
You have to come home early. Things that were probably not normal for my Italian friends, because my Italian friends would hang out at each other's place.
They would do pyjama parties where I wasn't allowed to do even that, even though it was just with girls.
I also remember the way I was dressing up, like my parents always wanted me to wear like, sorry, not Western clothes, but desi clothes when I was going out.
Whereas, you know, all of my friends were wearing Western clothes.
So even that I was like, but why am I supposed to be wearing like not Western clothes?
The things that I was eating were also different. I was always told to not eat outside because, you know, there is pork everywhere, so be careful about that.
So me, I grew up with this like question marks. And then I became a teenager and that's when I started to feel, I started to see that more of an issue, like me not being able to fit in. Because when you're a teenager, you just want to conform to what everyone else is doing around you, right?
And I was so aware that I did not look like anyone else, like everyone around me had, I don't know, brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes, blonde hair, you know, brown hair. Then you have me, black eyes, black hair, nothing special about me.
And then I was like, but like as much as I want to look Italian, I don't look Italian, you know, I don't. And we also have different values.
And then at home, it was the same thing, like everyone looked like me. But then deep down, I was like, yeah, but I don't feel like that either because my mentality was so Western.
So I always felt like I was not fitting in. And then at a certain point, I just wanted to let go of my Bengali side because I just felt like I was so restricted to so many things that normal teenagers would do.
Then I was like, yeah, why am I even like Bengali, you know?
And it took me a while. It took me a while to be able to embrace both of my identity and also finding my cultural identity because it is a big part of me.
It is. And I also started not to like when people were telling me, oh, but you're Bengali, you know, because you look Bengali. But I was like, I don't totally feel that because I'm born in Italy, I grew up there.
And then when people would tell me I'm Italian, I also did not like that because I felt like I was betraying 50 percent of my identity.
Darine: Yeah, I can relate so much from a different perspective, though, because I'm a mixed child. So my father is from North Africa.
My mom is French, but originally from Spain. And, you know, being like growing up in France, I was never French enough. Going to Tunisia, I was the French one.
And so I was so upset and, you know, this divide and I felt empty and I was so envious and I'm not ashamed to say it. I was so envious of the people who have that strong sense of belonging. I wanted so much to feel like I was belonging, but I couldn't because of my mix.
And then I moved to Canada and I was like, OK, you know what? I'm going to Canada.
I'm going to be Canadian. And that's it. No more questions where you are from.
And then when I say I'm Canadian, people are like, oh, yeah, but where are you from? Obviously, I have a French accent. Right.
So that being said, my physical features also, some people are like, oh, you're Lebanese. Oh, you are this or you are that. But no one would ever think that I'm either from North Africa or from France.
And I always have to explain. Right. And so it was very hard for me. I suffered a lot because of it. Well, there was a turning point in my life when I was in Canada.
I've been in Canada for 15 years now, where I realized that I needed to stop chasing this feeling of belonging because it will never happen.
And this is when I sat down with myself and I was like, OK, who are you? You're not French. You're not Tunisian. You are not Canadian. So who are you? Right. And I was mentored and we are going to talk about mentoring a little bit later.
But one of my mentors one day told me, Darin, your North African side gives you the opportunity to understand people from Africa. Your French side allows you to understand people from Europe and your Canadian side gives you the opportunity to understand the North American people. So it is a strength.
This is a unique strength and no one can beat you on that.
So my question to you is, at what time, if it happened, have you realized that what used to be pain and confusion actually could be one of your strengths?
Urmi: Besides being millennials, we also shared that part of the story, too, about being multicultural, because I could relate to everything you were saying right now about that sense of belonging, because it wasn't that anyone was not making me feel belonged.
It was me not feeling like I belonged there because of my differences internally and externally. And I was also searching for that belonging all this time.
And I felt that my cultural identity was not uniting me, but dividing me. I saw this as a limitation. I saw this as a weakness because I was also jealous of a lot of my friends who didn't have the need to move around so many times when they were growing up.
Like we were living in Italy.
We moved everyone in Italy.
Then we went to the UK, came back and moved again.
And it was like we were moving so many times that I was like, I'm tired of this.
You know, I don't have a place that I can call home where all of my friends have a place they could call home. They could go back to it no matter what, even at 30 years old. Right.
And I always felt very, very envious about it because I was like, I don't have a home.
In Italy right now, I don't have a place that I call home, even though Italy is my home.
And when I moved to Canada, I felt the same thing, too. I was like, probably I will understand my identity, but I think it just made it 10 times worse.
I was lucky enough that I made many friends and I have a friend in particular with who I will speak about it.
And then she made me realize that me having too many cultures means that I have two different visions. It means that I can speak two different languages.
It means that I can cook two different cuisines. I can dress two different ways. And it's only after that that I was able to see that as a strength.
But it took a lot of conversations with her to finally get that answer. Otherwise, I don't think I was going to find this answer.
And it was at that moment that I finally, I think I was able to accept myself, embrace my identity. And that's when I think I got a lot of strength in me to start doing a lot of the things that I do right now.
Darine: It's sad that we don't realize sooner how powerful it is.
And I can tell, like, you know, when I'm in France, I'm a French girl. Trust me, the attitude. I'm a French girl. When I'm in Tunisia, I'm a Tunisian girl. Like, same, the attitude, everything, you know, it's Tunisian.
And this is what is wonderful about being able to navigate from a culture to another and to live that culture fully because we understand it. Right.
And when I'm in North America, I'm Canadian. Listen, you know, so same in the workplace, you know, with my friends, my Canadian friends, I'm a Canadian girl. So, yeah, this is a beautiful journey.
This is a blessing, but we don't know it because we have to go through the pain in order to identify it as a blessing. You also talk a lot about your fear of public speaking and you are now a speaker.
You have your own podcast. So definitely this is something that you have come over.
As women leaders, we need to express ourselves in public.
That can be our opinion. That can be a strategy, you know, and the more eloquent we are. But for a lot of people, and more especially women, public speaking, the fear of judgment, because we think that we have to look the part with the hair, the style, the voice, the eloquence.
You are Italian, so you probably speak a lot with your hands. I get it. And because that's what we do as Mediterranean. So that's another identity. We are Mediterranean, right?
So the challenge for me, for example, is to get a good picture because I'm always like this. So I always have my hand like this, like this, like that on my pictures.
But anyway, so were you able to identify what was the fear behind?
Urmi: I think my whole fear about public speaking was the lack of purpose.
That I was still trying to figure out, because I remember when I first went to my first public speaking club, they asked me why you're here.
And I did give them the answer. I told them why I'm there, which was to either deliver TEDx or to become a professor. This is what I told them. And it was only at that moment that I knew why I was there.
And that became my why. And it still is my why. And before that, I just didn't know why I really wanted to work on public speaking.
Like when I was in university, I was part of this master's club for a couple of months. But let's be honest, I did it because I needed some extra curriculum activity.
And it was just for that. But I wasn't passionate enough about it.
But now, like even when I joined the first, when I went to that public speaking club, when I started, when I had that purpose, I knew why I was there. I knew it.
And even though I was scared to be there, I was scared to death. Honestly, I was like, I'm going to die on stage. That's what I told myself. I remember thinking, but I have to remember my why. And this is what I always remind myself every time I'm scared.
And little by little, I was able to build that confidence that I needed to have in me.
The strength, the power. And let me tell you this, it doesn't get perfect. I'm still scared each time, but I also get a sense of excitement.
So I started to see fear as more like an opportunity for me to prove myself and also see this as an excitement.
So now I just go around and speak, even though I might make mistakes. I might not be perfect, but I remind myself, you know, we're just humans.
And sometimes other humans want to see humans going through the same thing as other people. So that's the way I approach it now.
Darine: When did you realize that you needed to stop playing small in order to achieve your purpose?
Urmi: To be honest, I'm not sure. But I also know that I have these big, ambitious goals in life. Like I just want to go for it, like I want to go for the unattainable.
And I know I'm going to make it attainable. And I watched this TEDx or this speech by this actress, a Bollywood actress.
And she said, yeah, I'm chasing global domination. And as soon as she said that, I was like, yeah, this is also what I'm chasing too.
And that's when I started to become driven, go-getter, determined. And which goes really well with the podcast, like standing out. Everything that I do, I want to make sure that I stand out.
But I want to stand out for the work that I do. Like I want my work to speak for myself without me telling the world who I am. That's the type of person I am.
Darine: You made a very good point. You want to be known for your work. But in order to be known for your work, you want the work to speak for itself.
You've got to make it visible and to make yourself visible. And for the people listening to this podcast, you know that I'm all about visibility.
And this is one of the key, the main reasons I created this podcast, because I wanted to build a platform where we can give women leaders visibility. Because when you are visible, you are credible. When you are credible, you get more opportunities.
This is one. But also when you make your work known, and it doesn't have to be known on social media, it can be known within your organization, within the company you're working for, then we know it.
And I'm sure a lot of listeners will relate to that. You know, when you do the work or you say something and someone else takes credit for that? That happens to a lot of us.
That's why I keep saying you have to make yourself visible strategically. So people know your competence. They know what you are about. And when you speak up, they know who it is coming from.
You don't let others have the opportunity to steal your credit.
And so as we are talking about visibility, I would like to mention also, it's important, especially for women leaders, to understand that making yourself visible is not about showing off. Making yourself visible is not about showing your private life, your family life.
Making yourself visible is about positioning yourself for the experts that you are in your industry to the right people. You don't need one million people to know who you are and what you do. You need the right people to know it, to understand it, right?
And so I think it's very important, and the podcast that I'm doing as well is part of my strategy of making other women visible by making myself visible, right? So you can provide value and also serve your own visibility.
Urmi: Yeah, and it's all related to the whole concept of personal branding.
You know, it's the brand that you stand for. It's the brand that you have created. And you don't necessarily need to sell a product to build a personal brand.
You are the brand. It's what kind of values you're sharing to the people, what kind of skills and knowledge you have. And it could be done in many, many ways.
And I also say the same thing about this visibility. Like, it's important to be visible everywhere, but also at work, because, you know, if there is a project happening or there's a promotion and you created a good impression of yourself and you are a good person, like good employee and so forth, without making an effort, the person will think of you right away, which is, again, part of the personal branding, the perception that people have about you.
So it's important to work on that, on that visibility part, to initiate teams, you know, to speak about the things you want, it just shows more of you as a type of person that you are.
Darine: Yeah, exactly. And thinking about the type of person that you are, as I said at the beginning, you have built a career in finance, which is an industry that is still male-dominated. Can you share with us a time where you felt the heaviness of being the only one in the room?
Urmi: I had two situations, and it happens often. So the first one, it was when I went for a job interview, actually. A couple of years ago.
And me, every time I go to an interview, I'm always doing my research on who is in the management team and so forth.
And so there was a small company, it was made by very few people, like it was a very small company, not that many employees, and it was just a lot of men in the management team.
And there were a few women, but they did not have their pictures on the website. So you're not even sure why there are no pictures of women and so forth.
And then what happened is I went to the interview and I asked the interviewer what they do in terms of that, like if they do anything to promote corporate social responsibility.
And I was asking him if they do have women, if they do hire women in the company.
And to be honest, I think the person really appreciated my question because it was important for me, especially because it's something that I truly care for, like diversity, representation and so forth.
And he was telling me that the issue wasn't that they didn't want to hire women. It was because not many women were applying for this kind of job.
So I understood why this was happening. Although I do think there are still some barriers in the industry.
And then the second thing is related to a lot of meetings that I go to, external meetings for my role, where I attend presentations and often I'm the only woman at the table. I'm the only woman at the table.
I'm very self-conscious about it. And I hear men talking, making comments, how it is financed and so forth. And that's when I tell myself, I have to stay there.
I should not get up and walk away. I just have to stay there and make myself heard by other people.
So those are the two situations where I felt like women were not so represented and still are not in many cases.
Darine: What do those moments teach you about leadership?
Urmi: That we have a long way to go.
Darine: Well, listen, we are here, we are pushing doors and we are making it happen. I like the fact that you said, you know, when I'm the only woman at the table, I am very self-conscious that I have to stay at the table and I have to speak up because I need to make myself heard. So many women listening struggle with imposter syndrome, especially, you know, in those situations when you are the only one.
That can be being the only woman, that can be the only person of color, that can be so many things where you are the only one in the room. And oftentimes when you are the only one, imposter syndrome starts to kick in, right?
What would you tell those women about, you know, turning that feeling into a fuel?
Urmi: Okay, there's this one thing that I do and I also learned it by attending a conference where they were talking about it and they talked about the power of reframing.
So basically they talk about, like, if you're thinking something negatively, to turn that thought into something positive.
So, for instance, like, I don't think I should be here. You can tell yourself, I deserve to be here. I work hard to be here, you know, to turn that negative thought into something positive.
And usually when you do that, you start rewiring your brain to think that as well.
And then the other thing they also taught us was about documenting all your accomplishments. So every time you feel like, I don't deserve to be there, to just, like, make a list of everything that you have accomplished and to use that as a way to remind yourself about the work that you have done so far.
Okay. It's normal. I think as a woman, we always, I think we're just conditioned to think that way. They were not good enough, unfortunately.
Sometimes from cultural reasons, society reasons, you know, that's the way we are raised, where we just feel that we're never enough.
But it's also up to us to tell ourselves that we are enough for ourselves and that it's enough what we do. We cannot make everyone happy as long as we choose ourselves and we choose our own happiness. We're good to go.
Darine: I would add to that, that no matter what you do, what you think and the way you do it, people will have an opinion about it.
So you better do you, be you, you know, be proud of it, because if you hold yourself back, people will have an opinion about it.
So you better speak up and, you know, just showcase your expertise, your smartness, your presence. You deserve to be present.
And as you said, this is something that we need to work on. And I have worked on a lot. Now, I have reached a stage in my career, in my life, where I enter a room, even if I'm the only woman. And of the time, I'm the only woman and the youngest person in the room.
And so there is always, you know, self-doubt that will kick in. But then I have learned over the years, you know, to reframe that and say, hey, you know, I'm here because I have that expertise and because, you know, I have my say at the table.
Also, another tip that is good is to have someone that you can call and vent. That's what I do sometimes. Yeah, you know, this and that.
And a good friend, a good mentor, you know, that you can call and say, hey, you know, they make me feel this way. Or, you know, the situation makes me feel like I'm not good enough, I'm not smart enough, competent enough.
In my case, it's always, you know, the competence. And this friend mentor became friend who became friend is like, stop it. Stop that nonsense right now.
Don't let them make you believe that you are not good enough. So you need to surround yourself with the right people. That's the key here.
Urmi: I'm with you on that. I believe in that.
Darine: The last question that I like to ask on this podcast to all guests is, what would you like to be remembered for?
Urmi: I think I just want to be remembered for my passion for things. Few people always, when they look at me, say, you're very passionate about it.
And I never thought about it, to be honest, until it was pointed out. And I think I always want to be remembered for that, because I think nowadays people do things for different reasons.
And sometimes you just do it to get those followers, get those numbers, get those downloads. But me, I do it just because I'm truly passionate about the things that I do.
Darine: And this is when you find your purpose. When you find your purpose and that you have a strong why, as you said earlier, you don't care about vanity metrics.
We look at it. I'm not going to lie. I look at the vanity metrics and sometimes, you know, it hurts. Sometimes it hurts, right?
But I don't let that define me or define my work or define my impact, right? So, yes, take a look at the vanity metrics.
They may matter at some point, but that shouldn't be the core of what you are looking for when it comes to measuring your impact, your why, your passion, you know, the way you communicate, the way you show up and you are consistent every day, every week, every month, is way more important.
Thank you so much for this great conversation.
All the links to your podcast, your book, and if you want to learn more about Urmi, all the links are available in the episode description. And thank you so much.
Urmi: Thank you.
Darine: If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review. Your feedback helps us to continue to grow and bring more valuable content. Until next time, bye.
